Canadians @ NCAA Cross Country
11/15/2011 11:21:46 PM
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Has anyone compiled a list of Canadian qualifiers for the NCAA Championship?
Has anyone compiled a list of Canadian qualifiers for the NCAA Championship?
11/16/2011 12:29:50 AM
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Joined: Oct 2010
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Men: Cameron Levins - SUU (Ind) Mohammed Ahmed - Wisc Jeremy Rae - ND JP Mallette - ND Women: Kendra Shaaf - UNC (Ind) Victoria Fratczak - Ok State Caileigh Glenn - Ok State Kate Kujawa - Ok Sate Sheila Reid - Villanova Jessica Parry - FSU Kate Harrison - WVU Sarah Ann Brault - WVU Stephanie Aldea - WVU Justine Johnson - Washington
Men:
Cameron Levins - SUU (Ind)
Mohammed Ahmed - Wisc
Jeremy Rae - ND
JP Mallette - ND

Women:
Kendra Shaaf - UNC (Ind)
Victoria Fratczak - Ok State
Caileigh Glenn - Ok State
Kate Kujawa - Ok Sate
Sheila Reid - Villanova
Jessica Parry - FSU
Kate Harrison - WVU
Sarah Ann Brault - WVU
Stephanie Aldea - WVU
Justine Johnson - Washington
11/21/2011 12:44:30 PM
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Joined: Oct 2010
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Levins in 4th, Mo in 5th. solid attempt ftw from Levins here, and Ahmed did what he needed to get Wisco the convincing W top-5: Lalang Deerick +13 Korir +18 [i]Levins +20 Ahmed +22[/i] And other results: Sheila with the W Harrison in 8th Schaff 15th Johnson 65th Brault 68th
Levins in 4th, Mo in 5th. solid attempt ftw from Levins here, and Ahmed did what he needed to get Wisco the convincing W

top-5:
Lalang
Deerick +13
Korir +18
Levins +20
Ahmed +22


And other results:

Sheila with the W
Harrison in 8th
Schaff 15th
Johnson 65th
Brault 68th
11/21/2011 10:59:41 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 62
Congratz to ahmed's top 5 placement and their teams title- they certainly crushed the field!! Also with sheila reid and her win!!! [b]AMAZING JOB[/b] for these two Canadians!!!
Congratz to ahmed's top 5 placement and their teams title- they certainly crushed the field!! Also with sheila reid and her win!!! AMAZING JOB for these two Canadians!!!
11/22/2011 11:44:55 AM
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[quote=ERL_19]Levins in 4th, Mo in 5th. solid attempt ftw from Levins here, and Ahmed did what he needed to get Wisco the convincing W top-5: Lalang Deerick +13 Korir +18 Levins +20 Ahmed +22 And other results: Sheila with the W Harrison in 8th Schaff 15th Johnson 65th Brault 68th[/quote] @ERL_19 As usual, crazy talent among the Canadian girls running in the NCAA. How/when will this start showing up at the senior elite level back here? Some of these girls must have the potential to run very fast over 5k to Marathon with a little post-collegiate seasoning...
ERL_19 wrote:
evins in 4th, Mo in 5th. solid attempt ftw from Levins here, and Ahmed did what he needed to get Wisco the convincing W

top-5:
Lalang
Deerick +13
Korir +18
Levins +20
Ahmed +22

And other results:

Sheila with the W
Harrison in 8th
Schaff 15th
Johnson 65th
Brault 68th


@ERL_19 As usual, crazy talent among the Canadian girls running in the NCAA. How/when will this start showing up at the senior elite level back here? Some of these girls must have the potential to run very fast over 5k to Marathon with a little post-collegiate seasoning...
11/22/2011 12:48:35 PM
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 64
[quote=oldster]ERL_19Levins in 4th, Mo in 5th. solid attempt ftw from Levins here, and Ahmed did what he needed to get Wisco the convincing W top-5: Lalang Deerick +13 Korir +18 Levins +20 Ahmed +22 And other results: Sheila with the W Harrison in 8th Schaff 15th Johnson 65th Brault 68th @ERL_19 As usual, crazy talent among the Canadian girls running in the NCAA. How/when will this start showing up at the senior elite level back here? Some of these girls must have the potential to run very fast over 5k to Marathon with a little post-collegiate seasoning...[/quote] @oldster Who says its not happening here? Perhaps not to the extent it could be, or at the level of the men, but that is probably a matter of $$$+coaching/groups. If I remember correctly, Reid was headed to the former Brooks Project which would have had both (and been promising).. but, who knows now with the folding of their support. You'd be kidding yourself to think that these girls are significantly better (or better at all) than some of the current SR women's talent (M. Brown, D. Pidhoresky, M. Wright) that is not in the NCAA.
ldster wrote:
ERL_19Levins in 4th, Mo in 5th. solid attempt ftw from Levins here, and Ahmed did what he needed to get Wisco the convincing W

top-5:
Lalang
Deerick +13
Korir +18
Levins +20
Ahmed +22

And other results:

Sheila with the W
Harrison in 8th
Schaff 15th
Johnson 65th
Brault 68th

@ERL_19 As usual, crazy talent among the Canadian girls running in the NCAA. How/when will this start showing up at the senior elite level back here? Some of these girls must have the potential to run very fast over 5k to Marathon with a little post-collegiate seasoning...


@oldster

Who says its not happening here? Perhaps not to the extent it could be, or at the level of the men, but that is probably a matter of $$$+coaching/groups. If I remember correctly, Reid was headed to the former Brooks Project which would have had both (and been promising).. but, who knows now with the folding of their support.

You'd be kidding yourself to think that these girls are significantly better (or better at all) than some of the current SR women's talent (M. Brown, D. Pidhoresky, M. Wright) that is not in the NCAA.
11/22/2011 1:25:22 PM
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@joshseifarth Shelia Reid is part of Athletics Toronto, a group meant to train post-collegiate athletes, the club formed from the collapse of brooks marathon project. She joins other athletes such as Duncan, Megan Brown, Tim Konoval, Del Monte and a few others
@joshseifarth

Shelia Reid is part of Athletics Toronto, a group meant to train post-collegiate athletes, the club formed from the collapse of brooks marathon project. She joins other athletes such as Duncan, Megan Brown, Tim Konoval, Del Monte and a few others
11/22/2011 3:25:36 PM
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The women's group at Athletics Toronto supposedly (according the the AO registrations) includes Megan Brown, Kate Van Buskirk, Sheila Reid and Jess Pearo. I haven't seen a result from Pearo since last year's CIS XC meet - is she still active, injured or what? That is potentially a great group (2 NCAA medalists and 2 CIS champions).While Brown is older than the other women, and so has presumably has more experience as well, I always felt that she was under developed (with great talent)staying up here- too many of her races seemed not much more than time-trials with relatively little competition for her. Certainly she always struck me as equally (if not moreso) as talented as Metcalfe-Wright. Josh, you are doing a great job with Dana, but bringing Megan Wright into the picture doesn't mean much as she is a previous NCAA Champ (5000m) anyway who trains in the US. I think Oldster's point is that we don't necessarily see these NCAA stars develop later on the Canadian scene, and some of it may be about re-aligning with the "right" coaching situation if they come back - Reid and Van Buskirk seem to have that covered, however. Where has Marie-Louise Asselin (NCAA medalist over 5000m) been this past year? She was at the same school (West Virginia) as Metcalfe-Wright and Kate Harrison (8th yesterday, NCAA medalist at 10000m and Canadian XC champ last year) -Sean Cleary seems to do a great job with many of his runners - Sarah Ann Brault was National Triathlon champ this year. It could also be argued as where are all the CIS women (the two mentioned - Dana P. and Megan B. excepted)? Looking at National teams in the past number of years there seem to be few CIS graduates on the women's side on many teams (when we can qualify anyone). Therefore both systems may be somewhat problematic - one that the CIS competition level doesn't get our athletes close enough to world standards upon graduation to convince many to keep going. The other that athletes seem to get lost in the shuffle between NCAA graduation and transitioning to a domestic program. DST has taken on a number of Steeplers, who may well develop. Other than that it seems to be a bit piecemeal in trying to ascertain who might step up to the International level.
The women's group at Athletics Toronto supposedly (according the the AO registrations) includes Megan Brown, Kate Van Buskirk, Sheila Reid and Jess Pearo. I haven't seen a result from Pearo since last year's CIS XC meet - is she still active, injured or what?
That is potentially a great group (2 NCAA medalists and 2 CIS champions).While Brown is older than the other women, and so has presumably has more experience as well, I always felt that she was under developed (with great talent)staying up here- too many of her races seemed not much more than time-trials with relatively little competition for her. Certainly she always struck me as equally (if not moreso) as talented as Metcalfe-Wright.

Josh, you are doing a great job with Dana, but bringing Megan Wright into the picture doesn't mean much as she is a previous NCAA Champ (5000m) anyway who trains in the US. I think Oldster's point is that we don't necessarily see these NCAA stars develop later on the Canadian scene, and some of it may be about re-aligning with the "right" coaching situation if they come back - Reid and Van Buskirk seem to have that covered, however. Where has Marie-Louise Asselin (NCAA medalist over 5000m) been this past year? She was at the same school (West Virginia) as Metcalfe-Wright and Kate Harrison (8th yesterday, NCAA medalist at 10000m and Canadian XC champ last year) -Sean Cleary seems to do a great job with many of his runners - Sarah Ann Brault was National Triathlon champ this year.
It could also be argued as where are all the CIS women (the two mentioned - Dana P. and Megan B. excepted)? Looking at National teams in the past number of years there seem to be few CIS graduates on the women's side on many teams (when we can qualify anyone). Therefore both systems may be somewhat problematic - one that the CIS competition level doesn't get our athletes close enough to world standards upon graduation to convince many to keep going. The other that athletes seem to get lost in the shuffle between NCAA graduation and transitioning to a domestic program. DST has taken on a number of Steeplers, who may well develop. Other than that it seems to be a bit piecemeal in trying to ascertain who might step up to the International level.
11/22/2011 4:37:38 PM
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@steelcity I agree with most of what you have said. I believe that it almost always boils down to money/funding. The CIS is a poor development model for female distance runners. An indoor 3k, or 5k at XC, is the longest raced distance.. at least the men get 10k XC. Naturally, coaches in the CIS should train their distance females to score maximally in these middle-distances. It is in their best interest, and the interests of the program, for them to do this. Upon graduation they are no longer sheltered by "being a student" and are faced with the option of pursuing a career (generally at the expense of running), or try to earn their keep with their feet. How do you attain this second option? Generally, unless you are begin invited to the diamond league, you move to the roads. Where is the cash on the roads? I can tell you its not in road mile races. So, as a female CIS athlete who has been trained essentially as a middle-distance runner you are now faced with the task of developing into a 5k/10k+ road specialist (with most of the $ in the marathon). This is not impossible, and can be done, but it takes time and proper coaching. Of course, during this "time" (it has taken Dayna over a year, and she probably did it quicker than most) you make very little money without outside assistance. Canada doesn't really have the post-collegiate support (i.e.: Hanson's, ZAP, Minnesota, Nike, Mammoth) available for a female runner to be essentially income-less for 1-2 years post-collegiately. Further, I don't see AC stepping up to the plate to support "rising stars" until after the fact. In theory, Canadian NCAA runners should have an easier time transitioning into revenue-generating forms of racing if they so choose. I believe many athletes are blinded by the romanticized feeling of glory that supposedly comes with representing ones country at WC/Olympics, and this negatively affects their decision making in terms of truly MAKING A LIVING with running. Racing in the Olympics, and especially the WC, is a money losing endeavour for most. Instead of making an income racing where the money flows, athletes are stuck jumping through hoops to meet standards and race. On top of this, when they DO qualify they essentially forgo the opportunity to make an appearance fee and earn prize money because they are stuck representing a piece of land (i.e.: a fall marathon during Oly year). The opportunity cost of finishing outside the top 3 at a major championship is huge. Many of the Kenyan athletes have no problems with this so they follow the money and become financially independent quite quickly.
@steelcity

I agree with most of what you have said.

I believe that it almost always boils down to money/funding. The CIS is a poor development model for female distance runners. An indoor 3k, or 5k at XC, is the longest raced distance.. at least the men get 10k XC. Naturally, coaches in the CIS should train their distance females to score maximally in these middle-distances. It is in their best interest, and the interests of the program, for them to do this.

Upon graduation they are no longer sheltered by "being a student" and are faced with the option of pursuing a career (generally at the expense of running), or try to earn their keep with their feet. How do you attain this second option? Generally, unless you are begin invited to the diamond league, you move to the roads. Where is the cash on the roads? I can tell you its not in road mile races.

So, as a female CIS athlete who has been trained essentially as a middle-distance runner you are now faced with the task of developing into a 5k/10k+ road specialist (with most of the $ in the marathon). This is not impossible, and can be done, but it takes time and proper coaching. Of course, during this "time" (it has taken Dayna over a year, and she probably did it quicker than most) you make very little money without outside assistance. Canada doesn't really have the post-collegiate support (i.e.: Hanson's, ZAP, Minnesota, Nike, Mammoth) available for a female runner to be essentially income-less for 1-2 years post-collegiately. Further, I don't see AC stepping up to the plate to support "rising stars" until after the fact.

In theory, Canadian NCAA runners should have an easier time transitioning into revenue-generating forms of racing if they so choose. I believe many athletes are blinded by the romanticized feeling of glory that supposedly comes with representing ones country at WC/Olympics, and this negatively affects their decision making in terms of truly MAKING A LIVING with running. Racing in the Olympics, and especially the WC, is a money losing endeavour for most. Instead of making an income racing where the money flows, athletes are stuck jumping through hoops to meet standards and race. On top of this, when they DO qualify they essentially forgo the opportunity to make an appearance fee and earn prize money because they are stuck representing a piece of land (i.e.: a fall marathon during Oly year). The opportunity cost of finishing outside the top 3 at a major championship is huge. Many of the Kenyan athletes have no problems with this so they follow the money and become financially independent quite quickly.
11/22/2011 9:14:13 PM
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@joshseifarth I fundamentally disagree with your position that the CIS is a poor development model for our athletes. The history of distance running in Canada, both male and female, indicates quite clearly that athletes from the NCAA, CIS, and some that did neither, have achieved International standing and success. So it is clearly not that part of our "system" (heavy on the quotes) that determines eventual outcomes. And I really disagree that female distance runners are somehow hampered in their development, because the CIS has a 3K indoor, and a 5K cross country race. The CIS competitive season can start in late September, and finish by mid-March at the latest, and during that time period, the CIS athletes can quite easily take part in Provincial/National/International Cross-Country or Indoor. That leaves over 6 months of the year, for longer-term athlete development to take place. This isn't happening as much as I would like to see, but that is not a function of the CIS program, that is a coach/club/centre deficiency. As I see it, that allows more flexibility and freedom for the athlete/coach to choose their path than the NCAA system, which usually starts in early September and doesn't end until mid-June. Post-CIS and post-NCAA athletes have equal chances to succeed at a higher level, in my opinion. And as your point seemed to focus on the many years required to develop into a longer distance specialist, I would take the exact opposite of your position, Josh. If a CIS athlete is going to be a longer distance runner later in their career, they can easily build up to a 5K/10K in the Canadian summer season, or build up mileage all spring/summer long if they want to. Throwing in some road races of any distance also seems easier in the CIS than the NCAA, simply due to the number of months during which the athlete is an individual, and not concerned with team scores. Either system can work, it is up to the individual athlete and coach and support system to choose and pursue their road to the top. As a final note, most top world class long distance runners have developed at least reasonable, and in some cases exceptional speed in the middle distance events, at some time in their career. This can happen in either NCAA or CIS, and I think it is important to take some time to develop through the shorter mid-distance events (1500/3000/5000). Sorry for any rambling!
@joshseifarth
I fundamentally disagree with your position that the CIS is a poor development model for our athletes. The history of distance running in Canada, both male and female, indicates quite clearly that athletes from the NCAA, CIS, and some that did neither, have achieved International standing and success. So it is clearly not that part of our "system" (heavy on the quotes) that determines eventual outcomes. And I really disagree that female distance runners are somehow hampered in their development, because the CIS has a 3K indoor, and a 5K cross country race. The CIS competitive season can start in late September, and finish by mid-March at the latest, and during that time period, the CIS athletes can quite easily take part in Provincial/National/International Cross-Country or Indoor. That leaves over 6 months of the year, for longer-term athlete development to take place. This isn't happening as much as I would like to see, but that is not a function of the CIS program, that is a coach/club/centre deficiency. As I see it, that allows more flexibility and freedom for the athlete/coach to choose their path than the NCAA system, which usually starts in early September and doesn't end until mid-June. Post-CIS and post-NCAA athletes have equal chances to succeed at a higher level, in my opinion. And as your point seemed to focus on the many years required to develop into a longer distance specialist, I would take the exact opposite of your position, Josh. If a CIS athlete is going to be a longer distance runner later in their career, they can easily build up to a 5K/10K in the Canadian summer season, or build up mileage all spring/summer long if they want to. Throwing in some road races of any distance also seems easier in the CIS than the NCAA, simply due to the number of months during which the athlete is an individual, and not concerned with team scores. Either system can work, it is up to the individual athlete and coach and support system to choose and pursue their road to the top.
As a final note, most top world class long distance runners have developed at least reasonable, and in some cases exceptional speed in the middle distance events, at some time in their career. This can happen in either NCAA or CIS, and I think it is important to take some time to develop through the shorter mid-distance events (1500/3000/5000). Sorry for any rambling!
11/22/2011 10:30:49 PM
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@traveller Long-term athlete development is not a part-time endeavour. The emphasis was not that it takes years to become a long-distance specialist, but that it takes time to transition from, essentially, a middle-distance runner into being successful at the distances that generate revenue. During this time, an athlete requires some sort of financial support or survives on Ramen and water. If these longer distances were integrated into CIS competition (a la NCAA), the development could begin under the safety net of collegiate scholarship and "earning a degree". The transition to the roads would be much shorter, and the athlete may become self-sustaining much quicker. Moreover, although I agree that some level of middle-distance speed is a necessity for long-distance success, I don't agree that this must precede any long-distance racing. These attributes can be developed in tandem (cue cries!) while targeting long-distance events. PS - name me a successful CIS coach who would allow their athletes to race in competitive long-distance road races during the XC/track season.. This debate is heating up, I like it.
@traveller

Long-term athlete development is not a part-time endeavour. The emphasis was not that it takes years to become a long-distance specialist, but that it takes time to transition from, essentially, a middle-distance runner into being successful at the distances that generate revenue. During this time, an athlete requires some sort of financial support or survives on Ramen and water. If these longer distances were integrated into CIS competition (a la NCAA), the development could begin under the safety net of collegiate scholarship and "earning a degree". The transition to the roads would be much shorter, and the athlete may become self-sustaining much quicker.

Moreover, although I agree that some level of middle-distance speed is a necessity for long-distance success, I don't agree that this must precede any long-distance racing. These attributes can be developed in tandem (cue cries!) while targeting long-distance events.

PS - name me a successful CIS coach who would allow their athletes to race in competitive long-distance road races during the XC/track season..

This debate is heating up, I like it.
11/22/2011 11:02:37 PM
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[quote=traveller]@joshseifarth most top world class long distance runners have developed at least reasonable, and in some cases exceptional speed in the middle distance events, at some time in their career. This can happen in either NCAA or CIS, and I think it is important to take some time to develop through the shorter mid-distance events (1500/3000/5000). Sorry for any rambling![/quote] @traveller Unless you can show me there is proof that a direct correlation between improvement in short distances and improvement in longer distances exists, than that argument does not hold water. the current trend in marathon is contrary to that notion as young guys like Wanjiru, Kebede, Emmauel Mutai have all had success without anytime spent on the track. The outdated theory that you have to exhaust your potential in short distances in my opinion has been the biggest reason for how stagnant north american running has been in the last 15 years.
raveller wrote:
@joshseifarth
most top world class long distance runners have developed at least reasonable, and in some cases exceptional speed in the middle distance events, at some time in their career. This can happen in either NCAA or CIS, and I think it is important to take some time to develop through the shorter mid-distance events (1500/3000/5000). Sorry for any rambling!


@traveller

Unless you can show me there is proof that a direct correlation between improvement in short distances and improvement in longer distances exists, than that argument does not hold water.

the current trend in marathon is contrary to that notion as young guys like Wanjiru, Kebede, Emmauel Mutai have all had success without anytime spent on the track. The outdated theory that you have to exhaust your potential in short distances in my opinion has been the biggest reason for how stagnant north american running has been in the last 15 years.
11/23/2011 2:01:08 AM
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@joshseifarth I would look forward to some heated and respecful date on these issues. I'll spend some time on that tomorrow. In the interim, rest assured that I have considerable experience in long term development of distance runners, from the high school to the Olympic Final, and everything in between. @ eighthundred. My first read is that we are probably not too far apart on the question, once we are talking in the same verbiage and context. I'll get going on this tomorrow also.
@joshseifarth

I would look forward to some heated and respecful date on these issues. I'll spend some time on that tomorrow. In the interim, rest assured that I have considerable experience in long term development of distance runners, from the high school to the Olympic Final, and everything in between.

@ eighthundred. My first read is that we are probably not too far apart on the question, once we are talking in the same verbiage and context. I'll get going on
this tomorrow also.
11/23/2011 2:01:49 AM
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Joined: May 2010
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[quote=oldster]ERL_19Levins in 4th, Mo in 5th. solid attempt ftw from Levins here, and Ahmed did what he needed to get Wisco the convincing W top-5: Lalang Deerick +13 Korir +18 Levins +20 Ahmed +22 And other results: Sheila with the W Harrison in 8th Schaff 15th Johnson 65th Brault 68th Add Justine Johnson (45th) on the second place Washington scene. She had a tough time in her first 2 years there but is now really coming into her own.
ldster wrote:
ERL_19Levins in 4th, Mo in 5th. solid attempt ftw from Levins here, and Ahmed did what he needed to get Wisco the convincing W

top-5:
Lalang
Deerick +13
Korir +18
Levins +20
Ahmed +22

And other results:

Sheila with the W
Harrison in 8th
Schaff 15th
Johnson 65th
Brault 68th

Add Justine Johnson (45th) on the second place Washington scene. She had a tough time in her first 2 years there but is now really coming into her own.
11/23/2011 10:27:35 AM
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Joined: Oct 2010
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@bryano she's already on my list in 65th. I thought she was 45th at first as well, then I saw they don't count individuals in the team scoring
@bryano

she's already on my list in 65th. I thought she was 45th at first as well, then I saw they don't count individuals in the team scoring
11/23/2011 12:38:25 PM
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 168
Can anyone provide to a link to the all-time Canadian Marathon lists for both men and women? It might be helpful for upcoming discussion on this thread.
Can anyone provide to a link to the all-time Canadian Marathon lists for both men and women? It might be helpful for upcoming discussion on this thread.
11/23/2011 1:34:43 PM
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@ josh / eighthundred Just to clarify, I never said, nor do I believe that one must exhaust their possibilities on the track before beginning Marathon Prep. Having said that, there have been many great Marathoners whose approach included moving up in distance to the Marathon over time. I also believe that there are different strokes for different folks, and there is more than one path to developing an elite long distance runner. Furthermore, I don't necessarily believe that we should automatically emulate the East Africans. Some of the strengths that they bring to the table, we can not duplicate. We do not and will not have thousands of teenagers who can come down from the hills and run world-class times right out of the box, not going to happen. If we can ever hope to have a 2:05 marathoner, or 2:20 for women, I see it more as a journey of one, maximizing their own individual strengths, and being willing, able, and supported to hone their craft over a long time period. And I do not think it is possible to run anywhere near those times without some reasonable "leg speed", whether developed and expressed on the track or not. At this point in the debate, I think my main point is that runners in the CIS have ample opportunity from 1st year (18ish) onwards to develop towards whatever distance event they are most interested in and suited for. A good CIS program, with strong emphasis on long term development of individual athletes, and with the appropriate coaching being an integral component of this development, can produce excellent results = short term and long term. With shortened cross-country and indoor seasons that are easily possible in the CIS context, there is no reason that close to 8 months of the year cannot be devoted to aerobic development, in whatever quality and quantity the athlete is ready for. For instance, the cross-country racing season can be as short as 6 weeks, late-September to mid-November, a couple of weeks longer if National xc is developed. Even at that an athlete who has spent months working on their aerobic base can treat their early races as strong tempo runs, and effectively cut their full-out racing season to about 4 weeks. Similarly in the indoor season, the racing can be done between the end of January and early-mid March, another 6 week period. Knowledgeable coaching and highly motivated athletes will result in very high performance levels in both CIS Cross-Country and CIS Indoors, with 2 x 6-week specific racing seasons, leaving up to 40 weeks out of 52 for primarily aerobic development. I'm not saying that is happening at the moment, I don't really know. But it is totally do-able, and running CIS is no excuse for not reaching maximum performance at any distance, up to and including the Marathon. At least, that's the way I see it. Looking forward to the replies !
@ josh / eighthundred
Just to clarify, I never said, nor do I believe that one must exhaust their possibilities on the track before beginning Marathon Prep. Having said that, there have been many great Marathoners whose approach included moving up in distance to the Marathon over time. I also believe that there are different strokes for different folks, and there is more than one path to developing an elite long distance runner. Furthermore, I don't necessarily believe that we should automatically emulate the East Africans. Some of the strengths that they bring to the table, we can not duplicate. We do not and will not have thousands of teenagers who can come down from the hills and run world-class times right out of the box, not going to happen. If we can ever hope to have a 2:05 marathoner, or 2:20 for women, I see it more as a journey of one, maximizing their own individual strengths, and being willing, able, and supported to hone their craft over a long time period. And I do not think it is possible to run anywhere near those times without some reasonable "leg speed", whether developed and expressed on the track or not.
At this point in the debate, I think my main point is that runners in the CIS have ample opportunity from 1st year (18ish) onwards to develop towards whatever distance event they are most interested in and suited for. A good CIS program, with strong emphasis on long term development of individual athletes, and with the appropriate coaching being an integral component of this development, can produce excellent results = short term and long term.
With shortened cross-country and indoor seasons that are easily possible in the CIS context, there is no reason that close to 8 months of the year cannot be devoted to aerobic development, in whatever quality and quantity the athlete is ready for. For instance, the cross-country racing season can be as short as 6 weeks, late-September to mid-November, a couple of weeks longer if National
xc is developed. Even at that an athlete who has spent months working on their aerobic base can treat their early races as strong tempo runs, and effectively cut their full-out racing season to about 4 weeks.
Similarly in the indoor season, the racing can be done between the end of January and early-mid March, another 6 week period. Knowledgeable coaching and highly motivated athletes will result in very high performance levels in both CIS Cross-Country and CIS Indoors, with 2 x 6-week specific racing seasons, leaving up to 40 weeks out of 52 for primarily aerobic development. I'm not saying that is happening at the moment, I don't really know. But it is totally do-able, and running CIS is no excuse for not reaching maximum performance at any distance, up to and including the Marathon. At least, that's the way I see it. Looking forward to the replies !
11/23/2011 5:00:50 PM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 125
@traveller Coming soon, on AC website, so check back here "soon" [url=http://www.athletics.ca/page.asp?id=65]http://www.athletics.ca/page.asp?id=65[/url] Old thread (men): [url=http://tnfnorth.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=4339&page=1#54011]http://tnfnorth.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=4339&page=1#54011[/url] Source that can update old thread: [url=http://www.marathoncanada.com/mcMarathonRankings.htm]http://www.marathoncanada.com/mcMarathonRankings.htm[/url]
11/23/2011 5:16:55 PM
Coach
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 125
[quote=joshseifarth]@traveller ... PS - name me a successful CIS coach who would allow their athletes to race in competitive long-distance road races during the XC/track season.. This debate is heating up, I like it.[/quote] @joshseifarth Ross, U of T - Megan won 2008 Canadian 10k road and CIS XC I think part of the point is that this isn't necessary. Athletes like Brown, Genest, Lalonde, etc. have raced sparingly during XC and/or indoor track and had the opportunity to focus on non-school racing as their priority season. Obviously, this can occur within any school 'system', given the decisions of the athletes and coaches involved.
joshseifarth wrote:
@traveller
...
PS - name me a successful CIS coach who would allow their athletes to race in competitive long-distance road races during the XC/track season..

This debate is heating up, I like it.


@joshseifarth
Ross, U of T - Megan won 2008 Canadian 10k road and CIS XC

I think part of the point is that this isn't necessary. Athletes like Brown, Genest, Lalonde, etc. have raced sparingly during XC and/or indoor track and had the opportunity to focus on non-school racing as their priority season. Obviously, this can occur within any school 'system', given the decisions of the athletes and coaches involved.
11/23/2011 6:27:48 PM
User
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 168
@SteveWeiler Thanks Steve, I have been checking on the site, waiting also. In the interim, is there not even an older version of the Women's list? It won't need some updating, unfortunately.
@SteveWeiler
Thanks Steve, I have been checking on the site, waiting also. In the interim, is there not even an older version of the Women's list? It won't need some updating, unfortunately.

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