Easy runs
12/29/2011 8:23:23 PM
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by feel or pace range?
by feel or pace range?
12/30/2011 11:54:59 AM
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I generally tell my athletes to go by feel for the easy runs, seeing as there are a couple things to take into consideration. One, they could have raced the day before. Two, could have had a grueling workout the day before and need to recover. I believe covering a certain amount of time is more important than covering a certain distance. Easy runs are meant to add more mileage into the week, but to also allow an active recovery.
I generally tell my athletes to go by feel for the easy runs, seeing as there are a couple things to take into consideration. One, they could have raced the day before. Two, could have had a grueling workout the day before and need to recover. I believe covering a certain amount of time is more important than covering a certain distance. Easy runs are meant to add more mileage into the week, but to also allow an active recovery.
12/30/2011 1:25:04 PM
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what % of weekly volume is done at easy pace, realize different times of year may vary myself I find that around 90% of weekly volume is at easy pace and the other 10% is tempo/race pace/etc..., so for me the majority of my training is at the 7:30-8:00min pace yet trying to race at 5:20-6:00min pace (5km - 10km)
what % of weekly volume is done at easy pace, realize different times of year may vary

myself I find that around 90% of weekly volume is at easy pace and the other 10% is tempo/race pace/etc..., so for me the majority of my training is at the 7:30-8:00min pace yet trying to race at 5:20-6:00min pace (5km - 10km)
12/30/2011 4:23:38 PM
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Yes, it all depends what stage you are at in your training. At the prep stage, yes, a majority of your runs will be easy runs to get that base & volume. But, once you get into the racing part of your season those easy runs will act as recovery, as well as maintaining some base. As always, volume will reduce slightly as your season progresses & the intensity will increase. So, with my athletes I use "easy runs" as active recovery, thus is why I encourage them to go by feel, appose to a set pace. If an athlete is really sore/burnt out from the previous day's workout they may need to take it easier in order for them to recover. If you are always sticking to a certain pace this may not allow them to recover, depending on the athlete. It all depends on the coach & which approach they believe is more beneficial.
Yes, it all depends what stage you are at in your training. At the prep stage, yes, a majority of your runs will be easy runs to get that base & volume. But, once you get into the racing part of your season those easy runs will act as recovery, as well as maintaining some base. As always, volume will reduce slightly as your season progresses & the intensity will increase. So, with my athletes I use "easy runs" as active recovery, thus is why I encourage them to go by feel, appose to a set pace. If an athlete is really sore/burnt out from the previous day's workout they may need to take it easier in order for them to recover. If you are always sticking to a certain pace this may not allow them to recover, depending on the athlete. It all depends on the coach & which approach they believe is more beneficial.
03/06/2012 12:36:31 PM
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@rovertrunner ask the question a different way - What % of weekly volume is your quality mileage (eg. marathon pace and faster)?
@rovertrunner ask the question a different way - What % of weekly volume is your quality mileage (eg. marathon pace and faster)?
03/06/2012 2:59:51 PM
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I would say for a 80 mile week which is about average about 15-20% of that is workout/race pace mileage where as the other 80% is the controlled long run pace. Off days are used for recovery but but they are also used to increase the runners endurance which means that long runs are not exceptionally slow, sometimes what it takes to recover is a comfortable pace that can be maintained the entire time. they should be run at about 60% of your full speed, so for a 4:20 miler in a race around 7:30 on long runs..
I would say for a 80 mile week which is about average about 15-20% of that is workout/race pace mileage where as the other 80% is the controlled long run pace. Off days are used for recovery but but they are also used to increase the runners endurance which means that long runs are not exceptionally slow, sometimes what it takes to recover is a comfortable pace that can be maintained the entire time. they should be run at about 60% of your full speed, so for a 4:20 miler in a race around 7:30 on long runs..
03/07/2012 9:10:48 AM
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[quote=oasis]by feel or pace range?[/quote] @oasis Feel. No watch, just run a distance and enjoy. Set an upper pace limit (i.e.: no faster than X, regardless of how "fresh" I am).
asis wrote:
by feel or pace range?


@oasis

Feel. No watch, just run a distance and enjoy. Set an upper pace limit (i.e.: no faster than X, regardless of how "fresh" I am).
03/07/2012 1:24:37 PM
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to paraphrase Bill Squires ......5km fitness level plus 2mins..... (2 1/2 if at a lower level)
to paraphrase Bill Squires ......5km fitness level plus 2mins..... (2 1/2 if at a lower level)
03/07/2012 1:29:35 PM
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[quote=bomba]to paraphrase Bill Squires ......5km fitness level plus 2mins..... (2 1/2 if at a lower level)[/quote] @bomba Mark I assume you mean per mile (not per km, as 2 mins/km would be > 3 mins/mile)? I like that rule of thumb myself. That's a fair bit slower than Daniels' E pace, which we've debated on here numerous times before. I like Josh's suggestion of leaving the watch at home for easy runs. I like to measure easy runs either by time (using the watch) over an unknown distance, or by distanc (over a known route, without the watch), but not both. Helps avoid any temptation to attach any particular importance to pace, and lets you run purely by feel.
bomba wrote:
to paraphrase Bill Squires ......5km fitness level plus 2mins..... (2 1/2 if at a lower level)


@bomba

Mark I assume you mean per mile (not per km, as 2 mins/km would be > 3 mins/mile)? I like that rule of thumb myself. That's a fair bit slower than Daniels' E pace, which we've debated on here numerous times before.

I like Josh's suggestion of leaving the watch at home for easy runs. I like to measure easy runs either by time (using the watch) over an unknown distance, or by distanc (over a known route, without the watch), but not both. Helps avoid any temptation to attach any particular importance to pace, and lets you run purely by feel.
03/07/2012 1:56:56 PM
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[quote=peteq2] I like to measure easy runs either by time (using the watch) over an unknown distance, or by distanc (over a known route, without the watch), but not both. Helps avoid any temptation to attach any particular importance to pace, and lets you run purely by feel.[/quote] @peteq2 +1. This is great way to mentally recharge, especially building base in the dead of winter. Hitting hard is the easiest when your mind is in it as well as your body. It's really easy to try and hammer every day, but that's a great way to get stale. 70-80 easy minutes by feel usually ends up working out to a 7:30-7:45 anyway. Despite the prevalence of 80 different kinds of measurements, athletes should learn to listen to the best monitoring device they have - their body. I've always found my best races to be done racing "on the edge of a knife". Racing [i]just[/i] below the pace where I felt I was going to blow up. I was done at the very end but always had just enough to kick at the end.
peteq2 wrote:

I like to measure easy runs either by time (using the watch) over an unknown distance, or by distanc (over a known route, without the watch), but not both. Helps avoid any temptation to attach any particular importance to pace, and lets you run purely by feel.


@peteq2

+1. This is great way to mentally recharge, especially building base in the dead of winter. Hitting hard is the easiest when your mind is in it as well as your body. It's really easy to try and hammer every day, but that's a great way to get stale. 70-80 easy minutes by feel usually ends up working out to a 7:30-7:45 anyway.

Despite the prevalence of 80 different kinds of measurements, athletes should learn to listen to the best monitoring device they have - their body. I've always found my best races to be done racing "on the edge of a knife". Racing just below the pace where I felt I was going to blow up. I was done at the very end but always had just enough to kick at the end.
03/07/2012 8:28:39 PM
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@gazoo opinions on this statement; "Slow down! If you can run 10:15 for 3km on race-day, in racing flats or spikes, and you are fresh, you probably can only run 10:30-40 on any given training day. Go to my online calculator (www.runningprs.com) and plug in those times. You'll note that you are running too fast on your filler runs. At 10:30, you should run between 8:54 and 7:57 per mile. If you are doing "hard" workouts, which 5 x 1km at your 3km race-pace surely is, you need to run at the Very Easy Pace (8:54). If you are not doing "hard" workouts or racing much, then you get away with running at the Easy Pace (7:57 per mile). But, you will fry your Type IIa and IIx (fast oxidative and fast explosive) fibers if you run too fast on your easy runs. Why? Because, those fast fibers have to kick in to contribute to the force demands your legs require, as you run faster. Hence, they become "tired" when you go on the track to sprint. They have no energy left, in terms of carbs (glycogen). They have tensile strength fatigue (the mechanical machinery of the fibers/cells that contract and relax). They have fatigue in the connective tissue that supports faster running. Remember, when you run faster there is more pounding, more shock, as you land and try to push off hard. If your connective tissue is fried, your body cannot absorb the shock, and you "sink in" to the track. You don't bounce back! That's why you cannot generate a lot of force! It's like doing plyometrics, which in theory is a good idea, but if you get sore, fatigued legs from plyos you cannot absorb shock as you run faster than a jog. You lose mechanical skill and capacity, when your legs are tired/sore. Hence, you cannot run fast, and you cannot run far, before you want to lie down at the side of the road and rest."
@gazoo

opinions on this statement;

"Slow down! If you can run 10:15 for 3km on race-day, in racing flats or spikes, and you are fresh, you probably can only run 10:30-40 on any given training day. Go to my online calculator (www.runningprs.com) and plug in those times. You'll note that you are running too fast on your filler runs. At 10:30, you should run between 8:54 and 7:57 per mile. If you are doing "hard" workouts, which 5 x 1km at your 3km race-pace surely is, you need to run at the Very Easy Pace (8:54). If you are not doing "hard" workouts or racing much, then you get away with running at the Easy Pace (7:57 per mile). But, you will fry your Type IIa and IIx (fast oxidative and fast explosive) fibers if you run too fast on your easy runs.

Why? Because, those fast fibers have to kick in to contribute to the force demands your legs require, as you run faster. Hence, they become "tired" when you go on the track to sprint. They have no energy left, in terms of carbs (glycogen). They have tensile strength fatigue (the mechanical machinery of the fibers/cells that contract and relax). They have fatigue in the connective tissue that supports faster running. Remember, when you run faster there is more pounding, more shock, as you land and try to push off hard.

If your connective tissue is fried, your body cannot absorb the shock, and you "sink in" to the track. You don't bounce back! That's why you cannot generate a lot of force! It's like doing plyometrics, which in theory is a good idea, but if you get sore, fatigued legs from plyos you cannot absorb shock as you run faster than a jog. You lose mechanical skill and capacity, when your legs are tired/sore. Hence, you cannot run fast, and you cannot run far, before you want to lie down at the side of the road and rest."
03/07/2012 8:42:01 PM
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@oasis That's from Tinman right? Now there's a guy who loves the "science" of running a tad too much for my taste. :-) Not that I necessarily disagree with the philosophical sentiment he seems to have been expressing there, presumably in discussion with some young gun running all his easy runs too fast (which is to me the most common and easiest mistake 99.99% of all new runners make).
@oasis

That's from Tinman right? Now there's a guy who loves the "science" of running a tad too much for my taste. Not that I necessarily disagree with the philosophical sentiment he seems to have been expressing there, presumably in discussion with some young gun running all his easy runs too fast (which is to me the most common and easiest mistake 99.99% of all new runners make).
03/07/2012 8:52:38 PM
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@peteq2 this young gun;-) told him easy pace was 7:30-8:00/mile and he said that was too fast, not sure if I believe that and yea he is a little too science orientated, I was just interested in his opinion for educational purposes
@peteq2
this young gun told him easy pace was 7:30-8:00/mile and he said that was too fast, not sure if I believe that and yea he is a little too science orientated, I was just interested in his opinion for educational purposes
03/07/2012 11:15:09 PM
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I like my easy runs like i enjoy my sex, deliberate, drawn out and with minimal crying at the end.
I like my easy runs like i enjoy my sex, deliberate, drawn out and with minimal crying at the end.
03/09/2012 8:47:29 PM
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@grant93 I think this is a little more complicated than a simple formula: What type of runner is this? How does this runner typically recover? What was the tougher workout just done? How long ago was the previous breakdown and when is the next one? How old? What sex? How many years has he/she been running? What event are they training for? Over the years, I've noticed that when middle distance runners are doing high breakdown workouts (typically faster intervals with longer rests), the more advanced runners (especially the naturally quick - often 800/1500 runners) need more (longer) recovery than the less elite runners. I presume this is because they have the ability to break themselves down more. At the same time, in a time of year when the group is concentrating on longer, more voluminous quick runs or longer intervals, the aerobically elite runners recover quicker from these than the less talents runners. Sometimes the key to recovery is not necessarily the pace of the recovery run as it may be the length of time devoted to recovery before the next more difficult workout - 48 hrs vs 72 hrs, etc
@grant93

I think this is a little more complicated than a simple formula:

What type of runner is this?

How does this runner typically recover?

What was the tougher workout just done?

How long ago was the previous breakdown and when is the next one?

How old?

What sex?

How many years has he/she been running?

What event are they training for?

Over the years, I've noticed that when middle distance runners are doing high breakdown workouts (typically faster intervals with longer rests), the more advanced runners (especially the naturally quick - often 800/1500 runners) need more (longer) recovery than the less elite runners. I presume this is because they have the ability to break themselves down more.

At the same time, in a time of year when the group is concentrating on longer, more voluminous quick runs or longer intervals, the aerobically elite runners recover quicker from these than the less talents runners.

Sometimes the key to recovery is not necessarily the pace of the recovery run as it may be the length of time devoted to recovery before the next more difficult workout - 48 hrs vs 72 hrs, etc
03/09/2012 9:05:04 PM
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[quote=grant93]I like my easy runs like i enjoy my sex, deliberate, drawn out and with minimal crying at the end.[/quote] @grant93 So you are saying you like to go on easy runs by yourself?
grant93 wrote:
I like my easy runs like i enjoy my sex, deliberate, drawn out and with minimal crying at the end.


@grant93

So you are saying you like to go on easy runs by yourself?
03/12/2012 12:21:20 PM
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[quote=oasis]@peteq2 this young gun told him easy pace was 7:30-8:00/mile and he said that was too fast, not sure if I believe that [/quote] @oasis For a 10:15 3k runner, I think 7:30/mile is maybe pushing into the zone that's a little quicker than necessary or productive for most easy running. If I'm not mistaken, I think that's maybe even a bit quicker than Daniels' E-pace, and just faster than the 5k + 2:00 Bomba mentioned (assuming a 5k equivalence of about 5:40ish/mile).
asis wrote:
@peteq2
this young gun told him easy pace was 7:30-8:00/mile and he said that was too fast, not sure if I believe that


@oasis

For a 10:15 3k runner, I think 7:30/mile is maybe pushing into the zone that's a little quicker than necessary or productive for most easy running. If I'm not mistaken, I think that's maybe even a bit quicker than Daniels' E-pace, and just faster than the 5k + 2:00 Bomba mentioned (assuming a 5k equivalence of about 5:40ish/mile).
03/14/2012 9:29:26 AM
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[quote=bryano]Over the years, I've noticed that when middle distance runners are doing high breakdown workouts (typically faster intervals with longer rests), the more advanced runners (especially the naturally quick - often 800/1500 runners) need more (longer) recovery than the less elite runners. I presume this is because they have the ability to break themselves down more. At the same time, in a time of year when the group is concentrating on longer, more voluminous quick runs or longer intervals, the aerobically elite runners recover quicker from these than the less talents runners. Sometimes the key to recovery is not necessarily the pace of the recovery run as it may be the length of time devoted to recovery before the next more difficult workout - 48 hrs vs 72 hrs, etc[/quote] I don't have too much to add to what these fellows have said: by feel, err on the side of slower, rather than faster, all seem to make sense to me. An exception would be if you are doing a kind of base phase, with not a lot of quality the rest of the time (ie maybe some tempos and hills, but no structured interval workouts), then maybe you hammer a distance run if you feel good, so long as it is not preventing you from doing the other stuff. The reason I would give for that is that easy runs during the build-up part of the year are meant more as aerobic stimulus, as well as strength work (a metaphor I like is that running is a series of one-legged squats). When you move into racing season, the job of these runs changes: they are more maintenance and recovery runs between workouts and races. So during that time of year, you want to be more strict with pace, keeping it easy. @bryano's comment above is interesting, and suggests another important point. It depends on the runner, and how quickly that runner recovers, what they are training for, how old they are...what he said.
bryano wrote:
Over the years, I've noticed that when middle distance runners are doing high breakdown workouts (typically faster intervals with longer rests), the more advanced runners (especially the naturally quick - often 800/1500 runners) need more (longer) recovery than the less elite runners. I presume this is because they have the ability to break themselves down more.

At the same time, in a time of year when the group is concentrating on longer, more voluminous quick runs or longer intervals, the aerobically elite runners recover quicker from these than the less talents runners.

Sometimes the key to recovery is not necessarily the pace of the recovery run as it may be the length of time devoted to recovery before the next more difficult workout - 48 hrs vs 72 hrs, etc


I don't have too much to add to what these fellows have said: by feel, err on the side of slower, rather than faster, all seem to make sense to me. An exception would be if you are doing a kind of base phase, with not a lot of quality the rest of the time (ie maybe some tempos and hills, but no structured interval workouts), then maybe you hammer a distance run if you feel good, so long as it is not preventing you from doing the other stuff. The reason I would give for that is that easy runs during the build-up part of the year are meant more as aerobic stimulus, as well as strength work (a metaphor I like is that running is a series of one-legged squats). When you move into racing season, the job of these runs changes: they are more maintenance and recovery runs between workouts and races. So during that time of year, you want to be more strict with pace, keeping it easy.

@bryano's comment above is interesting, and suggests another important point. It depends on the runner, and how quickly that runner recovers, what they are training for, how old they are...what he said.
03/14/2012 8:16:48 PM
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@Stingersxc Interesting that you mentioned "type" of runner. I don't think you meant it in this way, but here is a concept to consider. The speed of the primary event of the runner may impact the type and/or modality of recovery. For example, a marathon runner may run "recovery" runs at, say, 70% of marathon pace, which is not mechanically too much different. Ex: 5min/mi @ race --> 6:30min/mi @ recovery BUT, for someone like a 400/800 runner, who's race pace is so much different than what you would consider a "recovery" pace, you may need to abolish some "recovery" runs during the most intense, specific training phases. Ex: 3:30min/mi @ race --> 4:03min/mi @ recovery ??? (70% RP, but still too fast). In this case, maybe you would choose not to run, but some other form of active recovery to prevent injury from running so slow that it becomes awkward (relatively). I learned this nugget from one of Renato's posts somewhere in the wide world of the internet. Interesting way to view recovery.
@Stingersxc

Interesting that you mentioned "type" of runner. I don't think you meant it in this way, but here is a concept to consider. The speed of the primary event of the runner may impact the type and/or modality of recovery. For example, a marathon runner may run "recovery" runs at, say, 70% of marathon pace, which is not mechanically too much different. Ex: 5min/mi @ race 6:30min/mi @ recovery

BUT, for someone like a 400/800 runner, who's race pace is so much different than what you would consider a "recovery" pace, you may need to abolish some "recovery" runs during the most intense, specific training phases. Ex: 3:30min/mi @ race 4:03min/mi @ recovery ??? (70% RP, but still too fast). In this case, maybe you would choose not to run, but some other form of active recovery to prevent injury from running so slow that it becomes awkward (relatively).

I learned this nugget from one of Renato's posts somewhere in the wide world of the internet. Interesting way to view recovery.
03/14/2012 9:28:22 PM
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@joshseifarth I did actually mean it that way, though I don't know that I'd use % of race pace as an indicator for easy runs. A couple examples: There are two women in our group who probably have about a 5:00 1500m time. One is a 3hr marathoner, and the other is a 2:16 800m runner (there's probably some inefficiencies in each of their 1500 times, but that's another story). Their recovery modalities are completely different. One can do 60-75min easy on days between workouts, while the other will do a max of 30min. Pace may vary. It partly has to do with the demands of the event, but also the individual athlete. Actually, there's a connection there, as ideally, athletes of a certain type will be encouraged towards an appropriate event (usually one they will do better at, so they have some success). And... cue @peteq2 and slow twitch/fast twitch talk! ;)
@joshseifarth

I did actually mean it that way, though I don't know that I'd use % of race pace as an indicator for easy runs.

A couple examples: There are two women in our group who probably have about a 5:00 1500m time. One is a 3hr marathoner, and the other is a 2:16 800m runner (there's probably some inefficiencies in each of their 1500 times, but that's another story). Their recovery modalities are completely different. One can do 60-75min easy on days between workouts, while the other will do a max of 30min. Pace may vary.

It partly has to do with the demands of the event, but also the individual athlete. Actually, there's a connection there, as ideally, athletes of a certain type will be encouraged towards an appropriate event (usually one they will do better at, so they have some success).

And... cue @peteq2 and slow twitch/fast twitch talk! ;)

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