Canadians @ NCAA Cross Country

  • Tim Brent
    User
    iRun3
    Men:
    Cameron Levins - SUU (Ind)
    Mohammed Ahmed - Wisc
    Jeremy Rae - ND
    JP Mallette - ND

    Women:
    Kendra Shaaf - UNC (Ind)
    Victoria Fratczak - Ok State
    Caileigh Glenn - Ok State
    Kate Kujawa - Ok Sate
    Sheila Reid - Villanova
    Jessica Parry - FSU
    Kate Harrison - WVU
    Sarah Ann Brault - WVU
    Stephanie Aldea - WVU
    Justine Johnson - Washington
  • E.R. Labelle
    User
    ERL_19 Edited
    Levins in 4th, Mo in 5th. solid attempt ftw from Levins here, and Ahmed did what he needed to get Wisco the convincing W

    top-5:
    Lalang
    Deerick +13
    Korir +18
    Levins +20
    Ahmed +22


    And other results:

    Sheila with the W
    Harrison in 8th
    Schaff 15th
    Johnson 65th
    Brault 68th
  • Steve Boyd
    Coach
    oldster
    ERL_19
    Levins in 4th, Mo in 5th. solid attempt ftw from Levins here, and Ahmed did what he needed to get Wisco the convincing W

    top-5:
    Lalang
    Deerick +13
    Korir +18
    Levins +20
    Ahmed +22

    And other results:

    Sheila with the W
    Harrison in 8th
    Schaff 15th
    Johnson 65th
    Brault 68th


    @ERL_19 As usual, crazy talent among the Canadian girls running in the NCAA. How/when will this start showing up at the senior elite level back here? Some of these girls must have the potential to run very fast over 5k to Marathon with a little post-collegiate seasoning...
  • Josh Seifarth
    User
    joshseifarth
    oldster
    ERL_19Levins in 4th, Mo in 5th. solid attempt ftw from Levins here, and Ahmed did what he needed to get Wisco the convincing W

    top-5:
    Lalang
    Deerick +13
    Korir +18
    Levins +20
    Ahmed +22

    And other results:

    Sheila with the W
    Harrison in 8th
    Schaff 15th
    Johnson 65th
    Brault 68th

    @ERL_19 As usual, crazy talent among the Canadian girls running in the NCAA. How/when will this start showing up at the senior elite level back here? Some of these girls must have the potential to run very fast over 5k to Marathon with a little post-collegiate seasoning...


    @oldster

    Who says its not happening here? Perhaps not to the extent it could be, or at the level of the men, but that is probably a matter of $$$+coaching/groups. If I remember correctly, Reid was headed to the former Brooks Project which would have had both (and been promising).. but, who knows now with the folding of their support.

    You'd be kidding yourself to think that these girls are significantly better (or better at all) than some of the current SR women's talent (M. Brown, D. Pidhoresky, M. Wright) that is not in the NCAA.
  • User
    FT58
    @joshseifarth

    Shelia Reid is part of Athletics Toronto, a group meant to train post-collegiate athletes, the club formed from the collapse of brooks marathon project. She joins other athletes such as Duncan, Megan Brown, Tim Konoval, Del Monte and a few others
  • User
    steelcity
    The women's group at Athletics Toronto supposedly (according the the AO registrations) includes Megan Brown, Kate Van Buskirk, Sheila Reid and Jess Pearo. I haven't seen a result from Pearo since last year's CIS XC meet - is she still active, injured or what?
    That is potentially a great group (2 NCAA medalists and 2 CIS champions).While Brown is older than the other women, and so has presumably has more experience as well, I always felt that she was under developed (with great talent)staying up here- too many of her races seemed not much more than time-trials with relatively little competition for her. Certainly she always struck me as equally (if not moreso) as talented as Metcalfe-Wright.

    Josh, you are doing a great job with Dana, but bringing Megan Wright into the picture doesn't mean much as she is a previous NCAA Champ (5000m) anyway who trains in the US. I think Oldster's point is that we don't necessarily see these NCAA stars develop later on the Canadian scene, and some of it may be about re-aligning with the "right" coaching situation if they come back - Reid and Van Buskirk seem to have that covered, however. Where has Marie-Louise Asselin (NCAA medalist over 5000m) been this past year? She was at the same school (West Virginia) as Metcalfe-Wright and Kate Harrison (8th yesterday, NCAA medalist at 10000m and Canadian XC champ last year) -Sean Cleary seems to do a great job with many of his runners - Sarah Ann Brault was National Triathlon champ this year.
    It could also be argued as where are all the CIS women (the two mentioned - Dana P. and Megan B. excepted)? Looking at National teams in the past number of years there seem to be few CIS graduates on the women's side on many teams (when we can qualify anyone). Therefore both systems may be somewhat problematic - one that the CIS competition level doesn't get our athletes close enough to world standards upon graduation to convince many to keep going. The other that athletes seem to get lost in the shuffle between NCAA graduation and transitioning to a domestic program. DST has taken on a number of Steeplers, who may well develop. Other than that it seems to be a bit piecemeal in trying to ascertain who might step up to the International level.
  • Josh Seifarth
    User
    joshseifarth
    @steelcity

    I agree with most of what you have said.

    I believe that it almost always boils down to money/funding. The CIS is a poor development model for female distance runners. An indoor 3k, or 5k at XC, is the longest raced distance.. at least the men get 10k XC. Naturally, coaches in the CIS should train their distance females to score maximally in these middle-distances. It is in their best interest, and the interests of the program, for them to do this.

    Upon graduation they are no longer sheltered by "being a student" and are faced with the option of pursuing a career (generally at the expense of running), or try to earn their keep with their feet. How do you attain this second option? Generally, unless you are begin invited to the diamond league, you move to the roads. Where is the cash on the roads? I can tell you its not in road mile races.

    So, as a female CIS athlete who has been trained essentially as a middle-distance runner you are now faced with the task of developing into a 5k/10k+ road specialist (with most of the $ in the marathon). This is not impossible, and can be done, but it takes time and proper coaching. Of course, during this "time" (it has taken Dayna over a year, and she probably did it quicker than most) you make very little money without outside assistance. Canada doesn't really have the post-collegiate support (i.e.: Hanson's, ZAP, Minnesota, Nike, Mammoth) available for a female runner to be essentially income-less for 1-2 years post-collegiately. Further, I don't see AC stepping up to the plate to support "rising stars" until after the fact.

    In theory, Canadian NCAA runners should have an easier time transitioning into revenue-generating forms of racing if they so choose. I believe many athletes are blinded by the romanticized feeling of glory that supposedly comes with representing ones country at WC/Olympics, and this negatively affects their decision making in terms of truly MAKING A LIVING with running. Racing in the Olympics, and especially the WC, is a money losing endeavour for most. Instead of making an income racing where the money flows, athletes are stuck jumping through hoops to meet standards and race. On top of this, when they DO qualify they essentially forgo the opportunity to make an appearance fee and earn prize money because they are stuck representing a piece of land (i.e.: a fall marathon during Oly year). The opportunity cost of finishing outside the top 3 at a major championship is huge. Many of the Kenyan athletes have no problems with this so they follow the money and become financially independent quite quickly.
  • User
    traveller
    @joshseifarth
    I fundamentally disagree with your position that the CIS is a poor development model for our athletes. The history of distance running in Canada, both male and female, indicates quite clearly that athletes from the NCAA, CIS, and some that did neither, have achieved International standing and success. So it is clearly not that part of our "system" (heavy on the quotes) that determines eventual outcomes. And I really disagree that female distance runners are somehow hampered in their development, because the CIS has a 3K indoor, and a 5K cross country race. The CIS competitive season can start in late September, and finish by mid-March at the latest, and during that time period, the CIS athletes can quite easily take part in Provincial/National/International Cross-Country or Indoor. That leaves over 6 months of the year, for longer-term athlete development to take place. This isn't happening as much as I would like to see, but that is not a function of the CIS program, that is a coach/club/centre deficiency. As I see it, that allows more flexibility and freedom for the athlete/coach to choose their path than the NCAA system, which usually starts in early September and doesn't end until mid-June. Post-CIS and post-NCAA athletes have equal chances to succeed at a higher level, in my opinion. And as your point seemed to focus on the many years required to develop into a longer distance specialist, I would take the exact opposite of your position, Josh. If a CIS athlete is going to be a longer distance runner later in their career, they can easily build up to a 5K/10K in the Canadian summer season, or build up mileage all spring/summer long if they want to. Throwing in some road races of any distance also seems easier in the CIS than the NCAA, simply due to the number of months during which the athlete is an individual, and not concerned with team scores. Either system can work, it is up to the individual athlete and coach and support system to choose and pursue their road to the top.
    As a final note, most top world class long distance runners have developed at least reasonable, and in some cases exceptional speed in the middle distance events, at some time in their career. This can happen in either NCAA or CIS, and I think it is important to take some time to develop through the shorter mid-distance events (1500/3000/5000). Sorry for any rambling!
  • Josh Seifarth
    User
    joshseifarth
    @traveller

    Long-term athlete development is not a part-time endeavour. The emphasis was not that it takes years to become a long-distance specialist, but that it takes time to transition from, essentially, a middle-distance runner into being successful at the distances that generate revenue. During this time, an athlete requires some sort of financial support or survives on Ramen and water. If these longer distances were integrated into CIS competition (a la NCAA), the development could begin under the safety net of collegiate scholarship and "earning a degree". The transition to the roads would be much shorter, and the athlete may become self-sustaining much quicker.

    Moreover, although I agree that some level of middle-distance speed is a necessity for long-distance success, I don't agree that this must precede any long-distance racing. These attributes can be developed in tandem (cue cries!) while targeting long-distance events.

    PS - name me a successful CIS coach who would allow their athletes to race in competitive long-distance road races during the XC/track season..

    This debate is heating up, I like it.
  • User
    eighthundred Edited
    traveller
    @joshseifarth
    most top world class long distance runners have developed at least reasonable, and in some cases exceptional speed in the middle distance events, at some time in their career. This can happen in either NCAA or CIS, and I think it is important to take some time to develop through the shorter mid-distance events (1500/3000/5000). Sorry for any rambling!


    @traveller

    Unless you can show me there is proof that a direct correlation between improvement in short distances and improvement in longer distances exists, than that argument does not hold water.

    the current trend in marathon is contrary to that notion as young guys like Wanjiru, Kebede, Emmauel Mutai have all had success without anytime spent on the track. The outdated theory that you have to exhaust your potential in short distances in my opinion has been the biggest reason for how stagnant north american running has been in the last 15 years.
  • User
    traveller
    @joshseifarth

    I would look forward to some heated and respecful date on these issues. I'll spend some time on that tomorrow. In the interim, rest assured that I have considerable experience in long term development of distance runners, from the high school to the Olympic Final, and everything in between.

    @ eighthundred. My first read is that we are probably not too far apart on the question, once we are talking in the same verbiage and context. I'll get going on
    this tomorrow also.
  • Bryan Onstad
    User
    bryano
    [quote=oldster]ERL_19Levins in 4th, Mo in 5th. solid attempt ftw from Levins here, and Ahmed did what he needed to get Wisco the convincing W

    top-5:
    Lalang
    Deerick +13
    Korir +18
    Levins +20
    Ahmed +22

    And other results:

    Sheila with the W
    Harrison in 8th
    Schaff 15th
    Johnson 65th
    Brault 68th

    Add Justine Johnson (45th) on the second place Washington scene. She had a tough time in her first 2 years there but is now really coming into her own.
  • User
    traveller
    Can anyone provide to a link to the all-time Canadian Marathon lists for both men and women? It might be helpful for upcoming discussion on this thread.
  • User
    traveller
    @ josh / eighthundred
    Just to clarify, I never said, nor do I believe that one must exhaust their possibilities on the track before beginning Marathon Prep. Having said that, there have been many great Marathoners whose approach included moving up in distance to the Marathon over time. I also believe that there are different strokes for different folks, and there is more than one path to developing an elite long distance runner. Furthermore, I don't necessarily believe that we should automatically emulate the East Africans. Some of the strengths that they bring to the table, we can not duplicate. We do not and will not have thousands of teenagers who can come down from the hills and run world-class times right out of the box, not going to happen. If we can ever hope to have a 2:05 marathoner, or 2:20 for women, I see it more as a journey of one, maximizing their own individual strengths, and being willing, able, and supported to hone their craft over a long time period. And I do not think it is possible to run anywhere near those times without some reasonable "leg speed", whether developed and expressed on the track or not.
    At this point in the debate, I think my main point is that runners in the CIS have ample opportunity from 1st year (18ish) onwards to develop towards whatever distance event they are most interested in and suited for. A good CIS program, with strong emphasis on long term development of individual athletes, and with the appropriate coaching being an integral component of this development, can produce excellent results = short term and long term.
    With shortened cross-country and indoor seasons that are easily possible in the CIS context, there is no reason that close to 8 months of the year cannot be devoted to aerobic development, in whatever quality and quantity the athlete is ready for. For instance, the cross-country racing season can be as short as 6 weeks, late-September to mid-November, a couple of weeks longer if National
    xc is developed. Even at that an athlete who has spent months working on their aerobic base can treat their early races as strong tempo runs, and effectively cut their full-out racing season to about 4 weeks.
    Similarly in the indoor season, the racing can be done between the end of January and early-mid March, another 6 week period. Knowledgeable coaching and highly motivated athletes will result in very high performance levels in both CIS Cross-Country and CIS Indoors, with 2 x 6-week specific racing seasons, leaving up to 40 weeks out of 52 for primarily aerobic development. I'm not saying that is happening at the moment, I don't really know. But it is totally do-able, and running CIS is no excuse for not reaching maximum performance at any distance, up to and including the Marathon. At least, that's the way I see it. Looking forward to the replies !
  • Steve Weiler
    Coach
    SteveWeiler
    joshseifarth
    @traveller
    ...
    PS - name me a successful CIS coach who would allow their athletes to race in competitive long-distance road races during the XC/track season..

    This debate is heating up, I like it.


    @joshseifarth
    Ross, U of T - Megan won 2008 Canadian 10k road and CIS XC

    I think part of the point is that this isn't necessary. Athletes like Brown, Genest, Lalonde, etc. have raced sparingly during XC and/or indoor track and had the opportunity to focus on non-school racing as their priority season. Obviously, this can occur within any school 'system', given the decisions of the athletes and coaches involved.
  • User
    traveller
    @SteveWeiler
    Thanks Steve, I have been checking on the site, waiting also. In the interim, is there not even an older version of the Women's list? It won't need some updating, unfortunately.
  • Steve Weiler
    Coach
    SteveWeiler
    This isn't necessarily complete, but should suffice for this thread. I tried to spend minimal time on this: didn't take out assisted 'a' performances and only went 25 deep - may spend more time on it in the future. With credit to Ken Young (www.arrs.net), Maurice Wilson, and MarathonCanada.com

    2:10:09 (1) Jerome Drayton 10 Jan 1945 07
    2:10:55 Reid Coolseat October 16, 2011 Scotiabank Waterfront
    2:10:56a (1) Peter Butler 15 Feb 1958 08
    2:11:04a (6) David Edge 11 Nov 1954 18
    2:11:15a (2) Art Boileau 09 Oct 1957 21
    2:11:28 Eric Gillis October 16, 2011 Scotiabank Waterfront
    2:11:34 (1) Peter Fonseca 05 Oct 1966 07
    2:11:46 (8) Peter Maher 30 Mar 1960 21
    2:11:46 Jon Brown Dec 3, 2006 Victoria Fukuoka
    2:12:19ax (3) Don Howieson 07 May 1954 09
    2:12:28 (1) Carey Nelson 04 Jun 1963 20
    2:12:39 Dylan Wykes Dec 5, 2010 California International
    2:13:18a (4) Bruce Deacon 05 Dec 1966 08
    2:13:21 (10) Richard Hughson 14 Aug 1949 03
    2:13:24a (4) Thomas Howard 20 Sep 1948 21
    2:13:30 (3) Brian Armstrong 09 Sep 1948 03
    2:13:59 (7) Paul Williams 07 Aug 1956 26
    2:14:13a (11) Jeff Schiebler 01 Jun 1973 03
    2:14:19 (2) Alain Bordeleau 07 Oct 1956 13
    2:14:21 (8) Michael Dyon 26 Oct 1955 13
    2:14:32ax (8) Mike Creery 17 Sep 1947 09
    2:14:33 (1) Gordon Christie 17 Sep 1961 14
    2:14:44a (1) Brian Maxwell 14 Mar 1953 26
    2:14:48 (6) William Britten 16 Dec 1955 06
    2:14:50 (1) Peter Quance 07 Mar 1955 03

    2:28:36 (1) Sylvia Ruegger 23 Feb 1961 06 Jan 1985
    2:29:28a (2) Jacqueline Gareau 10 Mar 1953 18 Apr 1983
    2:29:42.1 (1) Lioudmila Kortchaguina 26 Jul 1971 28 May 2006
    2:30:35a (3) Odette LaPierre 28 Jan 1955 18 Apr 1988
    2:30:41 (1) Carole Rouillard 15 Mar 1960 27 Aug 1994
    2:30:57a (5) Lizanne Bussieres 20 Aug 1961 18 Apr 1988
    2:31:36a (6) Ellen Rochefort 22 Nov 1954 18 Apr 1988
    2:31:46 (3) Danuta Bartoszek 19 Aug 1961 15 Oct 1995
    2:32:56 (2) May Allison 29 Oct 1964 05 May 1996
    2:32:56 (2) Nicole Stevenson 13 Sep 1973 15 Jan 2006
    2:33:00 (2) Anne Marie Malone 28 Jul 1960 13 May 1984
    2:33:32.8 (1) Linda Staudt 19 Aug 1958 13 Sep 1981
    2:33:51 (28) Sandy Jacobson 23 Mar 1966 31 Aug 2003
    2:33:58 Tara Quinn-Smith May 25, 2008 Toronto National Capital
    2:34:29a (4) Carol Howe 08 Dec 1965 21 Jun 2003
    2:34:44a (2) Tina Connelly 16 Aug 1970 05 Dec 1999
    2:35:09 Stephanie Hood october 12, 2008 Chicago
    2:35:24 (5) Dorothy Goertzen 11 Aug 1955 23 Sep 1984
    2:36:12a (1) Gayle Olinekova 03 Mar 1953 01 Dec 1979
    2:36:23 (4) Kate Wiley 28 Feb 1962 13 May 1984
    2:36:46 (1) Veronique Vandersmissen 1967 14 May 2000
    2:37:16 (13) Susan Stone 29 Aug 1960 10 May 1987
    2:37:52 (1) Kimberly Webb 02 Jan 1964 20 Oct 1996
    2:38:12a (11) Cindy Hamilton 10 Dec 1957 24 Oct 1982
    2:38:14 (1) Ida Mitten 18 May 1961 20 Mar 1999

    Minor side note. I extracted these (before adding recent performances) from an all-time performances list - as opposed to performers (1 each); had to go a lot deeper on the women's side to get to the #25 performer.